New Super Mario Bros. U

"What Should Be New?"

Today, I would like to ask you about the New Super Mario Bros. U game. We made this game with the desire and a clear mission in mind to create a classic action Super Mario game which absolutely had to be released simultaneously with the new game console. First, please introduce yourselves, mentioning what you worked on.

I'm Takemoto from the Entertainment Analysis & Development Division (EAD). I was the director.
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How long has it been since you were appointed director?

It was after development of the last game, New Super Mario Bros. Wii1, ended, so exactly three years.

1. New Super Mario Bros. Wii: An action game released for the Wii console in December 2009.

I'm Iwamoto, from EAD. Before, I was involved with<a href = "/interviews/wii/zelda-skyward-sword/4/0"> The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword</a>2, which came out one year ago, and then I went right on to join this project as a planner.
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2. The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword: An action-adventure game released for the Wii console in November 2011.

You were dedicated to planning this time.

I'm Asuke, also from EAD. As a planner, I worked on the Challenge Mode, one of this game's key features. And for the main mode, I worked on the map screen of the story mode. I was director for both the<a href = "/interviews/wii/nsmb/2/0"> Wii</a> and Nintendo DS3 versions, so I served as a good counselor to Director Takemoto this time. Um, can I say I was "good"? (laughs)
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3. DS version = New Super Mario Bros. was released for the Nintendo DS system in May 2006.

Just like that, I consulted with Takemoto-san and lent all kinds of support.

You know how hard it is to be a director, so you wanted to lend a hand.

At the time, Asuke-san was the only director who had worked on the "New" Mario games so he was a big help.

I passed on knowledge about all the good parts of the old Super Mario games to Takemoto-san, and as he preserved them, I advised him to expand upon new elements.

There are so many things that must be carried on in the classic 2D Super Mario action games that need to be taught. But on the other hand, if there isn't any freshness to it, they'll get humdrum.

New Super Mario Bros. 24 for the Nintendo 3DS system came out right before this game, so if we just did the usual, the players wouldn't be satisfied.

4. New Super Mario Bros. 2: An action game released for the Nintendo 3DS system in August 2012.

The development hurdles were set high—and I suppose you anguished over them more than anyone, Takemoto-san. What was on your mind as you began development and thought, "What should be new?"

We began this time by using materials from the Wii game to make the courses.

You started making it when development equipment didn't exist for the Wii U console.

Right. Even though we are making a new Super Mario game, the basic gameplay won't change, so we started by making the courses, but the whole time we thought, "How can we add new gameplay?"
Then, as we were doing that, the Wii U GamePad came up. I explored some ideas and then consulted (Takashi) Tezuka-san5 and (Hiroyuki) Kimura-san.6

5. Takashi Tezuka: General Manager, Software Development Department, Entertainment Analysis & Development Division. He has been involved in the development of many series such as Super Mario, Yoshi and Animal Crossing. He has appeared in sessions of "Iwata Asks" over the <a href = "/interviews/wii/mario25th/4/0"> original Super Mario developers for the 25th anniversary of Super Mario</a>, the history of handheld Legend of Zelda games for <a href = "/interviews/ds/zelda/1/0"> The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks</a>, <a href = "/interviews/wii/nsmb/1/0"> New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Volume 2)</a>, and <a href = "/interviews/3ds/super-mario-3d-land/1/0"> the producers of Super Mario 3D Land</a>, as well as in the special edition sessions of "Iwata Asks" for E3 2012 covering New Super Mario Bros. U and New Super Mario Bros. 2.
 
6. Hiroyuki Kimura: Software Development Department, Entertainment Analysis & Development Division. He has been involved in the development of such games as the Super Mario Advance series, New Super Mario Bros. and New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Previously, he appeared in the session of "Iwata Asks" over <a href = "/interviews/wii/mario25th/2/0"> Super Mario developers for the 25th anniversary of Super Mario (Volume 1)</a>.

We talked about having four players, with one more person touching the Wii U GamePad to place blocks.

So the idea of drop-in play, with a friend can drop in to play with you, came up pretty early on.

Yeah. But I wasn't sure we could do it. When making New Super Mario Bros. for the Nintendo DS, we had tried various types of gameplay involving touching the bottom screen, but it was underwhelming as gameplay for Super Mario.

You knew from the beginning that it wouldn't be easy to accomplish.

Yeah. I also had the idea that I wanted to create something that people could play without any explanation. When we released Nintendo DS, we held hands-on events for the public.

That would be Touch! DS.7

7. Touch! DS = Nintendo World Touch! DS: Hands-on events hosted by Nintendo at five locations around Japan in November 2004 before the release of the Nintendo DS system.

Right. At the time, I was involved in development of Yoshi Touch & Go8, so I was there to explain it. A child about 2 years old was there, but when I explained how to draw the lines, he didn't get it at all.

8. Yoshi Touch & Go: A touch-action game released for the Nintendo DS system in March 2005.

Well, at 2 years old, it may have been a little too difficult.

Nonetheless, ever since, I've been concerned with controls that you can understand right away without any explanation.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo4" class="photo">

You wanted to make something you could play instinctively?

Yes. I wanted to make something with responses for even a child who doesn't understand language. Then I considered how we could use the touchscreen on the Wii U GamePad for a Super Mario action game. If you just used it to move Mario, touch controls would be inferior to the Wii Remote controller.

Button controls are better suited to Mario's actions.

Right. But touching it to have blocks appear is easy to understand, and when I tried it, I saw that it was fun. Then I decided to pack in more gameplay like that.

But if you can make blocks appear wherever you want, Mario would be able to go to all sorts of places, so weren't you afraid that the difficulty would change drastically and it would fall apart game-wise?

I was worried about that. At first, making blocks appear would make the landforms completely unnecessary, but if you make it so that it requires complicated conditions…

And being able to make blocks appear anywhere would help beginners, but better players might think, "This has nothing to do with me."

But in the end, it seems to me that the game turned out with balance so that both beginning and skilled gamers will be satisfied. How did you accomplish that?

Oh! Enter your "good" counselor! (laughs)

"Mottainai (What a Waste)!"

When Takemoto-san consulted you, Asuke-san, what did you do?

First, the two of us tried a number of things to see what we could do using blocks that appear by touch. What really got us excited about that was using them to block other players.

Instead of using them to assist, you had great fun using them to block each other's play.

Right. For example, if a Koopa Troopa's shell is scooting along, you can place a block in its path so that it deflects into another player's way.

Or you could place a block over the head of another player that's about to jump?

Right, right! (laughs) That kind of purposefully mean way of playing was fun. Then, we poked around with what we could do for when two people are cooperating and backing up each other as hard as they can.

You looked for some kind of super play in which two people cooperate.

Right. You can do all kinds of things that way. We were overjoyed, like, "Oh! We've discovered a new route!" It looked like it would work and began to feel like we were getting somewhere.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo5" class="photo">

But did it feel like the two of you loved it while others around you didn't understand?

At first, I was actually one of those people.

As the precise map was coming together, when I first heard that you could make blocks appear by touch so you could go wherever you wanted, I was like, "Is that really a good idea?"

The map's objects and the mapper's intent might both end up being for nothing.

Yeah. But these two guys were really good, so just watching that incredible playing was really fun. I also thought it was interesting how each player can choose a different route.

In Super Mario games until now, when you wanted to go up, you had to reveal a hidden block—like one that shoots up a vine.

Yeah. In Super Mario, there are numerous ways to go up to a single spot. Finding those ways is fun, but this time, using blocks has added a new approach to the list.

Drop-in play is a new option to add new routes.

Yes. Suppose there's a Star Coin that's difficult to reach. It's a big relief when you can't get it alone no matter what but then snag it through drop-in play. Then you'll want to try it again without your buddy's help.

Huh? You can get Star Coins that are difficult to get by yourself?

Yes. Because once you see it, you know where it is.

Oh, I see. Until then, you hadn't noticed a Star Coin was there, but you discover it through drop-in play.

So you can use it like reconnaissance for when you're going to play alone.

Yes. Also, drop-in play in the story mode is important for beginners.

In the previous game New Super Mario Bros. Wii, being able to stay in the bubbles helped people to go further in the game by having others who were good at the game help them out. I heard from various people that they were able to clear the game, even though they themselves aren't great at action games. It seems to me that with this series, you're constantly challenging yourself so that even beginners can push through to the end.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo6" class="photo">

That's right. This time, I hope that even people who aren't good at video games will make use of drop-in play to reach the final battle against Bowser. We also made a Challenge Mode that will really be worth a challenge for people who can clear the story mode alone.

During development, we had fun coming up with our own challenges.

You set your own rules and then played that way.

Yes. I think that is a classic way that advanced players enjoy Super Mario games.

You want to brag, like, "I cleared it in the most unbelievable way!"

Yeah! (laughs) For New Super Mario Bros. Wii, we introduced ways to play and showed fresh challenges on the Nintendo homepage in Japan, and it was received really well.

There were these interesting methods of gameplay, but we couldn't tell people out there, so we thought, "Mottainai (What a waste)!" We also wanted everyone to keep playing Super Mario for a long time to come.

It would be a waste if they just beat Bowser and called it quits.

Yeah. So this time, we created a Challenge Mode and put it in the game from the start.

Were you the one who first suggested putting it in the game?

No. When I joined the team, Takemoto-san had decided to put it in.

Takemoto-san had also recognized the potential payoff from Challenge Mode gameplay.

Yes. I've been involved with the Super Mario series for a while, so when I design courses, I set some sort of challenge for myself, like being able to clear a course without ever touching the ground.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo7" class="photo">

Yes, that kind of drama and willpower is always behind course creation.

Yeah. But if you put something like that in and don't say anything about it, people often won't notice, which I thought was a waste.

When you put a Challenge Mode into the game from the start like with this game, it introduces a new way to play.

I wanted all kinds of people to play the Challenge Mode, so we prepared a mode that advanced players could enjoy, as well as a slightly easier mode that you can progress with little by little for people who can play about halfway through the story mode.

It would be tough for players with average skills if everything required incredible playing.

Yes. So there's a merit for those who aren't great at action games in that it gets easier to play when you learn how to, for example, nab consecutive 1-UPs in Challenge Mode and then try it out in the story mode to increase the number of Marios you have.

It's a mode with some incredibly difficult challenges, and where less skilled players can enjoy by gradually building up their experience.

Yeah. There are three levels—gold, silver and bronze medals—in line with each person's ability, so I really hope people will challenge themselves!

"No Buddy Play"

How did you adjust the difficulty of the Challenge Mode? Everyone on the team is good at video games, right?

Um, Iwamoto-san just looked as if to say no. (laughs)

Well, this is hard to say, but Iwamoto-san isn't very good at Mario games.

But even though he isn't very good, he can clear them.

Yeah, I can do that. I personally don't think I'm that bad…

There were a few people on the team at Iwamoto-san's level, and a few who can't clear a Super Mario game. They worked with us in making adjustments from low difficulty on up.

Iwamoto-san was a kind of litmus test. (laughs)

Yeah. For the low end. (laughs)<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo8" class="photo">

Top people in Mario Club9 were the litmus test for good players. It turned out so that even those people said it was a little challenging.

9. Mario Club Co., Ltd.: It conducts debugging and testing on Nintendo software during development.

But for the Mario Club members, it was just "a little" challenging. (laughs)

When you heard that didn't you feel a sense of accomplishment? Usually, it's hard to make a game that difficult.

Yeah. But it's no good if no one can clear it, so we tried not to make it too difficult.

But the testers at Nintendo of America did say, "We can't clear this!" (laughs)

Oh, the lineup of master testers in America waved the white flag?

Yeah. We got an email saying, "Can this really be cleared?"

They thought it was a mistake in game design.

Yeah. So I sent a video to America proving that it can be cleared.

Then the next day we got a reply saying, "Sorry. We did it." (laughs)

No. In order to get a Gold medal it's a matter of having to do it a certain way.

A Super Mario action game is also like a puzzle game.

Yes. If you clear a challenge in Challenge Mode, you can record a replay movie and save it. When you watch a good player's movie, you'll see places you thought you couldn't get to.

Yeah, you learn that. Then if you try the same thing, you'll be able to do it.

So watching videos by good players is a shortcut to improvement.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo9" class="photo">

Yes. The development staff included videos of themselves playing for inclusion in New Super Mario Bros. Wii as the Super Guide. This time, we want to do something for viewing in a different form.

In other words, "Please, look forward to it!"

Yeah! (laughs) Getting back to the Challenge Mode, there's something called two-player Boost Mode challenges this time. It's a task that uses a buddy for something you can't do alone. (Editor's note: In the Japanese version this mode is called "Buddy Mode challenges.")

In other words, it requires two people. And it has to be two people who get along.

That's right. At first, when you mess up, you might get into a spat, saying, "That was your fault!"

But when you do well, you suddenly get along really well! (laughs)

When good people play together, the buddy on the GamePad will think, "I bet he wants me to put one here," and then he'll put a block there. And the Mario player will be able to guess the other's thoughts, like, "He'll put one here."

When you sync up, it really feels good to play. And when a player and the friend on the GamePad alternate and watch each other's playing, they quickly improve. When two advanced players are together, you can enjoy some incredible playing.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo10" class="photo">

But a problem for the Boost Mode challenges was that you couldn't play it without two people. We didn't want to make anything that a single player couldn't complete if he or she wanted to.

Then we saw a certain programmer who just happened to be tapping away at Boost Mode challenges all alone.

You hold the Wii Remote with both hands and…

And you touch with your right middle finger…

(tapping the table with his middle finger) Like this.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo11" class="photo">

Oh, you hold the Wii Remote in both hands, and then touch the screen of the Wii U GamePad with the fingertip of your right middle finger. (laughs)

That programmer got all the Boost Mode challenge gold medals all by himself.

He could put blocks wherever he wanted because he was playing by himself.

He proved that you can play it on your own.

Yeah. Thanks to him, our unease disappeared.

One Map

There's a new mode called Boost Rush Mode. How did that come about?

Last time, there was a Free-for-All Mode for lightly playing the regular courses. We decided at the start that we wanted to put in something similar to that. We tried connecting certain courses and playing them through, but it wasn't very fun.

The gameplay was uneventful without surprise.

Yeah. There were a lot of opinions to the effect that simply playing the courses you had played in the story mode was lacking something. Then we tried adding rules, so that the screen keeps scrolling and the more coins you get the faster it goes. It's slow at the start, but it gradually gets faster and more difficult. That fit Super Mario gameplay.

When you do drop-in play and jump on blocks at just the right time, coins come out, but getting those coins speeds it up, so when you play alone or with another player or as drop-in play, the strategy changes.
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When two people play, you'll call out to each other, saying, "You get the coin up above, I'll get the one down below." In drop-in play, when you hop on blocks, coins pop out, so the player coming along behind can collect them. You split up roles to gather the coins. In the end, with reaching the goal quickly as the objective, it becomes like a time attack mode.

Right. Definitely an interesting one! (laughs)

So while New Super Mario Bros. U is an action game, you can also enjoy puzzle and racing game elements.

That's right. One game with three-times the flavor! (laughs)

The goal in New Super Mario Bros. 2 for the Nintendo 3DS was to get lots of coins within a limited amount of time. New Super Mario Bros. U is different in that you can decrease your time by getting coins to speed up the scrolling, which is interesting.

Yeah. Thanks to that idea, you'll strive to get coins you would have left alone before. I think that makes drop-in play come to life.

You didn't have coins come out when you jump on blocks just because of Boost Rush Mode, did you?

No. Originally, if you did a good job placing a block, we wanted to reward the player.

I think the biggest thing is how in the story mode, on the course selection screen, all the various worlds have been joined into one.

I heard from those who have played it say that this way you can clearly see the purpose of your adventure.

Yeah. You can look out over all the landforms on the way to your final destination.

Why did you want to connect all the separate maps into one?

Super Mario Bros. 310 on the NES had a board game-like world map.

10. Super Mario Bros. 3: An action game released for the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) in February 1990.

When I saw that, I was floored. In Super Mario World11 for Super NES, everything was connected and I felt like I was cruising right along on my adventure.
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11. Super Mario World: An action game released simultaneously with the Super NES system in August 1991.

Yeah, I was really impressed. That's engraved in my memory.

And that's why you decided to join this vast world into one.

Yes. I wanted to take that thrilling map from over 20 years ago and use the latest Wii U technology to take it a giant step further.

Reading the Posts in Your Hands

Wasn't production very challenging in connecting all the maps?

Usually, you would break it down one by one.

At first, a lot of people said, "Are we really gonna do this?" But Takemoto-san was like, "We're doing this no matter what."(laughs)

I wanted to do it no matter what anyone said.

Of course, there was a lot of opposition from designers and whatnot, but Takemoto-san said, "No, this is important this time," and that strong will lasted to end, so the team eventually came together as one and gave it their all.

Oh, yes. The final goal this time is Princess Peach's Castle, and you can see that it is the goal from anywhere, so you think, "I've come about one-third of the way," and when there's a fork in the road, you look out over all the landforms and think, "Which way shall I go?" That kind of worry is fun.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo14" class="photo">

When Takemoto-san makes something, he's very particular. He'll be like, "This mountain is too low," and "I don't like this shape!"

And, "When you get to the top of the mountain, I want it so you can see beyond the next course."

Asuke-san focused on camera angles at each point that would allow you to see the next course. He really dedicated himself to it.

Yeah. It was a lot of work. But looking at the final product, everyone said, "I'm glad we did that!"

And this map relates to features of Miiverse.12
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12. Miiverse: A network service that allows people all over the world to connect through their Mii characters and more fully enjoy video games integrated with the Wii U console at the system level.

I worked on Miiverse. We made it so that word bubbles displays over the map, and you can write comments. Connecting the maps into one and being able to look over all the courses played a big role in making that happen.

Oh, I suppose if they weren't connected into one, you couldn't have displayed it like that.

We basically leave it up to each game on how to handle Miiverse, but in the case of New Super Mario Bros. U, your location shows up on the map and you can display your posts.

Miiverse is a big feature of the Wii U, so it definitely had to be leveraged as a part of New Super Mario Bros. U, which goes on sale at the same time. We thought various ways about how we could present Miiverse, actually, it was Iwamoto san who had to think about the ideas, though. (laughs)

What did you think of for having Miiverse integrated?

I had heard that the key word for Miiverse is "empathy," so first I thought about what makes you experience empathy and want to post. I'm not very good at action games, so I mess up at the same spots over and over again.

Like, "I fell in that hole again!" (laughs)

Yeah. (laughs) I think that's the time you get emotional the most and want to tell people. And when you clear something really well or do something special to clear a course, you want to convey that happiness to others.<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo16" class="photo">

I thought if I posted when I felt like that, a feeling of "I was like that, too" would lead to empathy. I tried to make it so that the game would encourage the player to do so.

And you can submit handwritten posts to Miiverse, so those emotions come across even more fully.

Yeah. But, I didn't hear about handwritten posts until late in the game. (laughs)

That's right. Being able to submit handwritten posts weren't part of the plan at first.13

13. They weren't part of the plan at first: For more about the development of handwritten posts, see the session of "Iwata Asks" with <a href = "/interviews/wiiu/miiverse2/0/1"> the developers of Miiverse for the Wii U console</a>.

Also, you can read Miiverse comments on the Wii U GamePad in your hands.

Originally, when we displayed Miiverse on the television screen, lots of word bubbles appeared and it was difficult to see what was what.

But we wanted them to read messages of empathy right away. Then we made it so that only the Mii character's face would appear on the television screen. Then you would know someone was saying something. The Wii U GamePad shows pretty big letters, so you can read the comment right in your hands.

That's right. And it's great how you can read them without even pressing a button. Also, you can see a little bit further on the screen in your hands than on the television screen, so the Wii U GamePad is better for seeing what's up ahead.

And if you still can't see, you can easily scroll by touch control.

You might think that the television screen and Wii U GamePad always show the same things, but that actually isn't true.

Yeah. The map screen is different. So the maps are much handier this time.

In that respect, I suppose Wii U knowhow on how to utilize the two screens will build up.

"Touch Everything!"

With four players plus a fifth on the GamePad, up to five people can enjoy this game at once. And for the first time in the history of the series, you can play with Mii characters.

Actually, when we were working on the previous game for the Wii, we tried using Mii characters, but you could only tell them apart by the color of their clothes.

Takemoto-san and I couldn't tell which Mii character was ours!

Even though your faces are so different?!

But when we tried it this time for the Wii U, which has HD14, even if the Mii characters were pretty small, we could tell the difference, even with the facial expressions.

14. HD (high definition): This term indicates high resolution (high quality images) in televisions and other devices. Conditions for HD include a high number of image pixels, a number of scan lines over 720, and an aspect ratio of 16:9. Television broadcasting such as terrestrial transmission digital and BS digital that provide high resolution images is called HDTV.

Thanks to HD, we can even clearly tell when Mario blinks.

I heard Mario was blinking from the Wii version. It appears that almost no one noticed it though.

But if you put out your Mii character in story mode, they move like Mario, but it doesn't feel like you're controlling Mario.

Right. So in the story mode, you play with the usual Mario gang, but when you play with Mii characters, we created a Play With Mii category, so you can play three modes: Challenge Mode, Boost Rush Mode and Coin Battle Mode.

So Mario stays as the main character. When you use Mii characters for the multiplayer mode, it must get pretty exciting.

Certainly. When a fireball hits you, you can't help but say, "Ow!"

There's a stronger feeling that your Mii character is another you.

Right. And in the previous game, you might get confused and wonder who was playing Luigi, but now it's clearly Asuke-san's Mii, so you think, "I don't care who wins as long as it isn't Asuke-san!" (laughs)

This time we really made it like you're playing with other people.

Um, yes?<img aria-hidden="true" src="https://assets.nintendo.com/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/dpr_auto/Microsites/iwata-asks/wiiu/nsmbu/photo17" class="photo">

Tezuka-san, you're joining us as an observer today, but do you think that you achieved what you wanted to this time?

Yes, I suppose so. I really sense that this turned out to be a game that a wide variety of people can enjoy. When it comes to the multiplayer mode, I think you can enjoy it in different ways than the Wii game. Usually when multiple people play together, they shout out, but this time, calling out to each other is indispensable.

Shouting out and calling out to each other may seem similar, but are quite different.

I think the multiplayer mode is more fun this time.

I see. All right, lastly, I'd like to ask what you would draw the players' attention to.

This time, the maps are all connected, so you can come and go across its vast expanse anytime. You may become friends with Baby Yoshi or get items or run across enemies in your way, so walking across the map itself affords all kinds of discoveries.