Iwata Asks is a series of interviews conducted by former Nintendo Global President Satoru Iwata with key creators behind the making of Nintendo games and hardware.



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The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D Original Development Staff - Part 2

Making the Bosses and Enemies

Iwata

Now, Takizawa-san, I'd like to ask you about boss and enemy design.

Takizawa

Okay.

Iwata

How do you begin making the bosses for a Zelda game?

Takizawa

In general, I start by receiving the enemy specs from Aonuma-san and considering the designs and functions there. Then, once the specs have come together somewhat, I go to Morita-san at SRD and have him make them move.

Aonuma

What I gave him was just the basic character arc.

Iwata

So how the boss appears is the beginning, how the boss attacks is the development, how you beat it is the turn, and how that boss ends up is the conclusion.

Aonuma

Right. I just provided a framework and Morita-san and Takizawa-san fleshed it out while I waited and looked forward to seeing how it would turn out. But early on in development, I was groping around and drew some of my own sketches.

Iwata

Huh? You did?

Aonuma

Yeah. I was once a designer myself. (laughs) But one day, I showed Takizawa-san a sketch I had drawn and said, "I want you to make an enemy like this." He cut me down, saying, "Aonuma-san, could you please stop drawing your own sketches?"

Iwata

Why was that?

Aonuma

I thought, "Huh? Why?" and asked if my drawing was really that bad. He said it solidified the appearance, whereas he would rather be free to draw what he wants.

Iwata

Takizawa-san wanted to start with a blank slate when he drew the bosses.

Takizawa

Sorry…but yeah.

Aonuma

But I really wanted him to follow that design! I was totally bummed. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Takizawa

Oh, I really am sorry. I was young and insolent.

Aonuma

I had strong feelings about it and felt like I'd come up with some unique enemies, but then Takizawa-san and Morita-san turned out a bunch of stuff far beyond what I had ever imagined.

Iwata

Takizawa-san and Morita-san, how did you proceed with your work together?

Takizawa

I was practically a new guy and Morita-san was already a veteran, so I went back and forth to SRD as if I was training under him.

Iwata

Back when we were in the former head office?7 7. Former head office: Currently the Nintendo Kyoto Research Center in Higashiyama Ward, Kyoto City. In 2000, Nintendo moved its head office to Minami Ward, Kyoto City.

Takizawa

That's right. SRD was in a different building than EAD. You could go in barefoot, which felt good, so I always went over.

Iwata

Because it felt good? (laughs)

Takizawa

Yeah. (laughs) I explained the enemies to Morita-san and he put the programming together right away. I'd look at it and say, "Could you make this a little more…" and about 15 minutes later, he'd show me the new movement. We did that over and over. I think that substantive back-and-forth time was a great learning experience. I learned how to do things as if you're playing catch.

Iwata

Was that about your fourth year here?

Takizawa

It was my third year.

Iwata

That's quite a valuable experience to have in your third and fourth years. You apprenticed under Morita-san in the early days of the Famicom system.

Takizawa

That's right.

Iwata

You trained under your master, tossing the ball to him, to which he would respond by tossing it back in an amazing way. Even though he was your senior, you must have had some youthful insolence making you want to cut him down size. (laughs)

Takizawa

Yes, that's right. (laughs) I felt like I was privileged to learn from him, but I also had a strong desire not to let him beat me, so I wanted to cut him down to size.

Morita

We chatted about a lot of stuff completely unrelated to the game.

Takizawa

Oh, that's right. He taught me about fishing. (laughs) If I asked about programming, though, I hadn't studied that sort of thing, so I couldn't understand it all. But when he showed me some amazing character movement, I couldn't help but ask about it, like, "How do you do that?"

Iwata

As a programmer, you're happy when someone asks, "How do you do that?" Right, Takizawa-san? (laughs)

Takizawa

You are? (laughs)

Iwata

Yes! (laughs)

Takizawa

You don't think, "If you don't know anything about it, then don't ask!" or something like that?

Iwata

No, no. Don't you think that you want to find some way of explaining it so they understand?

Morita

I know I do. Of course, it depends on what it's about, though.

Iwata

Yes, some things aren't easy to explain.

Takizawa

An example from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is the boss Volvagia, which looks like a dragon.

Iwata

Yes. The boss in the Fire Temple.

Takizawa

Volvagia is a dragon, so it wriggles and undulates. I only gave Morita-san the dragon model parts, but he set it in motion immediately. It was mysterious how he could do that.

Iwata

You were impressed—like, "I don't get it, but wow!"

Takizawa

Yeah. I couldn't help but ask how he did it. He said it was the same as the programming for Star Fox 64. There's this scene when another fighter aircraft is tailing Arwing and…

Iwata

(jumping in) Oh, that? That's right! It's the same!

Takizawa

I should have known you'd pick up on it right away! (laughs)

Haruhana

Because he's a programmer, too! (laughs)

Takizawa

But when I heard that, I didn't quite get it. I just thought, "Wow, that's cool…"

Iwata

The way the fighter moves as it flies and Volvagia's movements are exactly the same.

Morita

I could do it easily by switching in the dragon for the fighter.

Takizawa

I was like "Whoa!" and "I see!" and had a great time every day marveling over it all.